Talk About Quick Copywriting That Sells

Talk with Renee Dalo, and Kris Jones

Speaker 3 (00:30):

You're listening to talk with Renee Dao, episode 1 73. Talk about quick copywriting with Kris Jones. Kris Jones is a story StoryBrand guide and founder of Red Door Designs, mentored by the author of Building a StoryBrand, Donald Miller himself. And with over 20 years of experience and clients like Nike and Adidas under her belt, Kris is extremely passionate about helping female small business owners and service providers get website copy that sells so they can multiply their revenue and focus on what they do best. Kris has been able to achieve incredible transformations for her clients, including increased revenue by 300% record breaking lead calls and clients booked scaling from 30 K months to 300 K months, charging six times more for the same service. Kris believes that writing copy for your own business doesn't have to feel like torture. In fact, once you know how to tell a compelling story, it can actually be fast, easy, and fun. And Kris is here to share exactly that with us today. So friends, go grab your coffee, grab your tea, and let's talk it out. 

Speaker 4 (01:36):

Welcome to Talk with Renee DLow, this chat for wedding pros and creatives. Tune in every week for no bss real talk from industry experts that want to help you thrive in your business and your life. Here's your host, event planner, educator, and sushi addict, Renee Dao. Grab a glass and get ready to talk it out. 

Speaker 3 (01:59):

Hello. Hello friends. Welcome to another episode of Talk with Renee Dao. It's me, your girl, Renee Dao. Guess what? I've had a lot of caffeine so far this morning and the recipient of all that caffeine this week is the lovely Kris Jones. How are you? 

Speaker 5 (02:12):

I'm doing really well. How are you? 

Speaker 3 (02:15):

Are you also caffeinated? 

Speaker 5 (02:17):

I actually am and I today drank some coffee that was infused with mushrooms. Not psychedelic mushrooms, thankfully for you. But yeah, I like it. I can't really tell the difference, but I figure 

Speaker 3 (02:36):

It's supposed to be like the adaptogens, right? It's good for you. 

Speaker 5 (02:38):

Yes. Good for your brain. 

Speaker 3 (02:41):

Let's see. You'll have to report back and let us know. 

Speaker 5 (02:44):

Time will tell. 

Speaker 3 (02:45):

It's only time will tell. Well, we're going to need that brain power today. Friends, we're talking about writing compelling copy, which listen for Wedding Pro. It's like I have to be honest with you, Kris, this is a little bit of a bane of our existence because I don't know if you've read a bunch of Wedding Pro websites these days, but they all say the same thing, which is I love weddings. I love love, and honestly, it just gives me a big eye roll. 

Speaker 5 (03:10):

Yeah, make your special day even more magical. 

Speaker 3 (03:15):

We're going to make it perfect for you, your perfect special day. Yeah, no, thank you. No, thank you. So I love that you're a StoryBrand guide. We have spoken with other StoryBrand copywriters before, but for those people who really don't know what that means, can you just give a little overview of what's different about StoryBrand? 

Speaker 5 (03:35):

Yeah, I mean, the idea behind StoryBrand is really that all our copy should be telling a story because stories are really how humans relate to each other and from we've been listening to stories from our early years throughout our whole lives, and StoryBrand really takes the story framework and helps you implement that same framework into your marketing. So any movie you've ever watched, book you've ever read really follows a specific formula, and it's just an incredibly powerful formula, especially when we incorporate it into our marketing. 

Speaker 3 (04:24):

I think the reality that we're all just listening and watching and absorbing the same 10 stories over and over is kind of a mind game at a certain point when you realize it. This is a tangent, but I'll go there. I was talking to my nephew this week, he was here visiting and we were trying to explain to him the plot of Breaking Bad. Did you watch Breaking Bad the show? 

Speaker 5 (04:42):

Oh, yeah, yeah. Loved it. 

Speaker 3 (04:43):

Yeah, we were obsessed with it, but he's a little too young for it. It happened when he was a child, so we're trying to explain it to him. And my husband said, we both said, well, it's such a compelling character, he's the tragic hero. And Anthony said, what are you talking about? We're like the archetype, the tragic hero. And he didn't know about it. And so we went over all the archetypes and I had that realization, like you said, Kris, that it's all just the same 10, 12 stories over and over, but we find them still so compelling and also a little bit comforting, right? Because we sort of can tune into like, oh, I think I might know what happens here. And then we feel confident about it. I 

Speaker 5 (05:17):

Think well, so true. And the other thing is as humans, we are all living our own hero's journey. So we're the hero of our own story, our own life story, which is why we get pulled into movies and we just relate to that hero character. We're all heroes essentially in our own lives. So that's the other reason 

Speaker 3 (05:43):

I love it. So for many business owners, I know myself included, I'm very glad my very first website is no longer still on the internet because I totally DIYed my website copy. This was before I knew the term for that was copy. I was like, I got to write some words on this website. Here we go. And I did my best. But then eventually I hired copywriters for, I don't want to say they were expensive because I think they were worth it, but at a certain point, I really do believe everything in business. I kind of feel like I should know how to do it myself and then I can hire out so that maybe I know what I'm hiring for. But for anyone listening who is maybe unfortunately they didn't write their own copy, but they sort of copied their own copy, what can I know you're out there. What is your take on DIYing your copy? 

Speaker 5 (06:38):

Well, I think that the path that you just shared with me is such a common one. I think it is really typical, and I think it's also not a bad thing When you're starting out your own business, you don't want to pour a lot of money into it and you kind of DIY everything. And there's really nothing wrong with that in the beginning. But eventually, once you realize your business is viable and you're getting clients and you want more clients, a lot of business owners end up hiring a copywriter like, gosh, if I DIYed it and I know this business is working and has the potential to grow, then if I hire a copywriter, wow, what's going to happen with my business? So the truth is, when you DIY your own copy, we just don't know what we don't know. So we just end up talking a lot about ourselves. And 

Speaker 5 (07:44):

When we do that, and it makes sense, right? You're like, okay, people come to my website, they want to learn about me, so I'm going to talk all about myself. What else would I talk about? But what happens when we do that is that we make ourselves the hero of the story. And when you learn a little bit about storytelling, it's one thing what I just shared was we're all the hero of the story of our lives, but in our business, we actually don't want to be the hero of our business. We want our clients and our customers to be the hero of our businesses' story. And there are two real essential characters in every story. There's the hero and the guide. And when you think about any movie, breaking Bad would be a good one, but I'm thinking right now of Karate Kid, right? 

Speaker 5 (08:36):

Mr. M Agi was the ultimate guide. He'd been there, done that, he'd won the championships, thank you. And then the adorable Ralph Macho karate kid in the original karate kid, that was way back when he was the perfect hero because he had the potential to find success, but we didn't really know if he could do it or not. And that's really where your clients are when they're at your website, they come to your website, they're struggling with a problem, and they're looking to you to be their guide to hire to really solve their problem. And so that's what happens when we make ourselves the hero of our own story on our website. We essentially kick our customers or our clients out of the story because there's only room for one hero in every story. So when you establish yourself as that guide, you really invite your customer into a narrative with you, and they cannot help but engage. 

Speaker 5 (09:43):

It is so powerful, and it does so many things around building resonance with your clients, building trust, helping them realize that you're the best one to solve this problem for them. So that's kind of why I wouldn't DIY, my own copy. And then often what happens, and I'd love to hear how it worked for you, Renee, but from what I hear from my clients is all the time I hear this, they come to me and they say, I just spent, or last year I spent $10,000 on a really expensive copywriter to help me write my sales page or to write my website. The highest one I've heard is $40,000 and that it didn't actually work. It's one thing if it works, right? It's like this will give me a return on the investment. But what happens is often I'm not saying I consider myself a copywriter, so I would never say it's bad to hire a copywriter or it's not a great thing to do. 

Speaker 5 (10:56):

But what happens often depends on the approach that the copywriter takes. Most often a copywriter will gather information for you and then from you and then go off and write it in a silo without you. Ultimately, that results in a lot of back and forth. So my clients tell me, number one, I spent a ton of money on the writing. Number two, I spent a ton of time going back and forth and back and forth with revisions and refinements and corrections. And so ultimately when you just don't have a lot of time, so the whole idea of hiring a copywriter is to save yourself the time and also to get something that actually works. Often I find it doesn't give you a return on the investment and you end up wasting a lot of time. And then the third thing that happens is you send somebody to your website and you kind of cringe because the copy doesn't feel aligned with your own voice. 

Speaker 3 (12:02):

That did happen to me once. Definitely. 

Speaker 5 (12:04):

Yeah, it just doesn't feel like you, and when we are the face of our own business, it needs to feel like it needs to really be aligned with you and be in alignment with your own voice. 

Speaker 3 (12:19):

Right? I agree with that. And I also think, well, so much of what you said resonated. I think too for me as an entrepreneur, and I have two businesses and many people that assist, and I have a lot of support, and I'm very grateful for that, but often my days feel a little bit like Swiss cheese in that I'm doing one thing and then I'm running to something else, then I'm doing to something else. And when I've worked with copywriters in the past, when they send you the copy, Hey, review this, it's like, well, I might not be in the right mind frame to do that right now, but I kind have to in order for that other person to do their work. I'm very aware that as the head of this company, I have to do my piece so other people can do theirs. 

Speaker 3 (12:54):

So sometimes it has happened where we get into this sort of rhythm where I'm, I'm receiving copy, but I'm not really in the right frame my mind to review it. Then I review it and I'm like, that's good enough. And then we get it back and I'm like, oh, well this sounds like a very vanilla version of me. Don't like that. And then I have to go in and sort of spice it up, which is fine, which I think we probably all have to do at some point, make it our own, but I don't know, it's sort of a, I guess it's an imperfect process either way. You look at it. 

Speaker 5 (13:23):

Totally. I mean, I think both of them are frustrating, and it is writing copy for your own business, for your own self feels like torture for most people. It's 

Speaker 3 (13:34):

Just 

Speaker 5 (13:35):

One of those nightmare things that gets pushed to the bottom of the, to-do list day after day, which turns into month after month and it's dreadful. It's like that annoying homework assignment that never ends. And I think as business owners, we want to do the work because we love the work, but what we don't realize is that when you go into business for yourself, you basically get to do the work you love, but you also have to become a part-time copywriter. There's so much content to be created and it's hard to know what's working and what's not. Anyway, I mean, it's just a pickle. 

Speaker 3 (14:12):

It really is. 

Speaker 5 (14:13):

It really is. It's a really big pickle. So the work that I do is really efficient and effective, and it was born out of this challenge that not only I had myself as a business owner, but that I saw my clients struggling with time and time and time again. And believe me, I've tried, I've been doing this now 20 years, so I've tried all different kinds of solutions, and ultimately what I found was that it has to be a cooperative and a collaborative process in order for it to work and in order for it to take the least amount of time and to be the most effective. The idea is that I don't want any business owner to feel stuck writing their own copy. And I also don't want any business owner to be stuck feeling cringey when they're sending somebody to their own website when they should really feel really proud and excited about that. 

Speaker 5 (15:17):

The way that I found that it works is around collaboration. It's like I know how to extract those questions out of you that help you tell your story, and through that, I hear your voice, I hear your style, and then I write the copy for my clients and then we get on a 90 minute collaboration call. Because to your point, Renee, when you're not in the right headspace to be reviewing copy, it could kind of hit you from any different angle. And you also don't have somebody there with you to go, oh, this is why I put that there, and this is why this line of copy is really important, and here's the strategic thinking that is behind each and every word and each and every section on your website. So that's also part of the collaboration call that I do is really educational in many ways. So it's the copy that I write and collaborate with. There are rarely a lot of edits because half of the challenge is really helping my clients understand the strategy and why something needs to be said, and then we work together to make sure it's said in the right tone, in the right voice. 

Speaker 3 (16:33):

Yeah, I think tone is so important. And I also, it's so funny that we're having this conversation today because last night, fairly late at night, I was procrastinated about something, full honesty on the show always I was procrastinating about something else, and I went onto my Renee Dao website and I was looking around and I was trying to update some images, and then I looked at this little tiny piece of copy that was attached to this freebie that I offer about how to journal, and I wrote all the copy for that website because when we were redesigning the website, I thought, well, it was very important to me that it sounded like me. But then like you said, it became torturous to have to write this copy just because I just never, it's so different when you're being in your business than talking about the business. For me, it's two different things and I can easily write copy for someone else, but for myself, I'm like, so anyway, I was looking at this little snippet of copy and it was basically something to compel someone to click on this freebie of how to journal. And I looked at this little line and I thought, who wrote that? Because it was so, it was like, do you think you might be ready to journal? If so, here's a guide. 

Speaker 3 (17:41):

First of all, that's not how I speak. I would never, but I did. I very much wrote that, and I thought, what kind of mood was I in when I wrote that I was probably exhausted and tired and didn't want to write anymore and was like, here you go. And so I changed it to journaling can change your whole business in life. Click here to get started. That is how I talk much better. That is what I would say to someone. I would say journaling has changed my whole life. Just click here, get started, just even if it's imperfect, start now. That's what I would say. 

Speaker 5 (18:10):

Yeah, and you bring up such a good point around writing copy for your own website because number one, once you build your own website or you know how to go in and change it, which most of us do, especially with all the easy intuitive cloud builders these days, you go in there and you noodle around. I mean, in this situation it was great. You caught something and then you fixed it, and you know your own voice well enough to be able to do that. A lot of times it's really like throwing, I was going to say throwing spaghetti at the wall. 

Speaker 3 (18:47):

I love it. Just throwing sticks. 

Speaker 5 (18:50):

Yeah, throwing a dart in the dark. So we end up, we don't have a lot of time anyway, but we end up going into the back end of our website and noodling around and wondering what's working, what's not. Maybe I should tweak this. Is that working? I'm working with a client right now who changes his website all the time, and I get it. I mean, we all have been there, but the beauty of working with a storytelling expert is that you don't have to wonder anymore. 

Speaker 5 (19:23):

It's going to work and you know why it's working, and so you just don't have to waste your time going back in there noodling around because it works and you feel confident about that. But I wanted to also share with you that there's a name. There's a name for what you're talking about when it comes to your ability. You can write for somebody else, but you can't write for your own business. And that is just the case for a hundred percent of entrepreneurs out there, business owners out there, it's called the bottle effect. I dunno, have you heard 

Speaker 3 (19:59):

Of before Bottle Effect? No, I haven't. Tell me more. 

Speaker 5 (20:02):

Basically when you're too close to your own business, it's like trying to read the label from inside the bottle. 

Speaker 3 (20:10):

That 

Speaker 5 (20:10):

So true. That can only be read from outside the bottle. So it's literally impossible to get the perspective you need and unless you cloned yourself and then cleared your brain and took a fresh look at your bottle. Yeah. Oh my God, Kris, 

Speaker 3 (20:25):

That's genius. It's so true. 

Speaker 5 (20:28):

Yeah, it really is. And the other thing that happens so often is what I call the curse of knowledge. And that just means for any of us that have been in the industry for any amount of time, we forget what it's like to not know what we know. So it becomes really challenging to write in a clear way and to meet your customers where they are with the knowledge they have and not with the knowledge that you have. 

Speaker 3 (20:55):

Yes. I have a question for you. Just popped in my brain is something, I think I've been spending way too much time on TikTok and Instagram these days, but I've been seeing this trend, and I know this is not necessarily in the case of Instagram, it is copy in that it is in the caption perhaps, but there's a lot of things going around I think about influencing or things people don't like or things you shouldn't do or five things you should never do at your wedding. And from a copywriter's perspective, how do you feel about that sort of skewed negative language? Is it helpful to sell? 

Speaker 5 (21:28):

Yeah, there is a strategy behind that. I mean, our brains are really wired to constantly scan our environment to figure out how to help us survive and thrive. And right along with that is we're scanning our environment to figure out how to avoid failure. And people want help. They really do want help, but more than wanting help, they want to avoid failure. And so that's why that's happening a lot on social media. 

Speaker 3 (22:01):

Yeah, I find it, on one hand, I agree that there's something compelling about it, right? There's something that makes me want to watch it. But then I also think for the greater good of entrepreneurship, I just see too many wedding pros being like, planners five things you should never do at your wedding. And I'm like, I guess, but also, aren't you alienating some people who just want help? And doesn't it kind of make you seem like a big old bitch if you're like, I would never do baby's breath. And it's like, I mean, maybe you wouldn't, but is that really putting our best foot forward now guys? I don't know. I'm of two minds about it. I haven't seen anything like that so much on people's websites, but it just feels like it's super common right now just in the ether and the internet. 

Speaker 5 (22:43):

Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of just optimism, being 

Speaker 3 (22:49):

Positive 

Speaker 5 (22:50):

And making the world a better place by helping other people. And I also think that there is a way to do that if you're really wanting to help people. There is advice that you can give them to help them avoid frustration or save time. So I think it's kind of all in the energy that you do it with. If you're trying to shock people or just be a Debbie Downer, no, it's not a good route to take. But I think if it really like the idea around never use baby's breath. Well, some people might love baby's breath, and so that really becomes insulting. But it might be three ways to know you're hiring the right wedding coordinator. So that advice to that might be you really want to do here are three questions that you want to ask any wedding coordinator that you might be interviewing. So you really do want to help them find the right fit for them, even if it's not you. 

Speaker 3 (23:57):

And maybe the language is just five alternatives to baby's breath, my five favorite alternatives to baby's Breath. You know what it is for me, I think I just figured it out, Kris, it's a lack of creativity. It feels to me like the lowest common denominator to just be like, I don't like this. And it's like, okay, well great. Tell me something useful. That's kind of how I feel about it. 

Speaker 5 (24:20):

Totally, totally. And I think a lot of times, back to your original point was that oftentimes when we're coming up with content, we just look at what other people are doing and kind of emulate it rather than sticking to what feels right for you. And I think that would probably change the way social media is done, but it's really hard not to do 

Speaker 3 (24:47):

It is really hard. So Kris, we've talked about the DIY, we've talked about hiring potentially someone who means well but does not have a voice down. You are advocating for something I would imagine sort of in the middle is kind of your approach. Can you walk us through, I know you gave us a high overview, but what is it like to work with you on copy? Is it a one day experience? How does it work? 

Speaker 5 (25:09):

So the whole experience takes two and a half hours total, and then your website copy is done. That's 

Speaker 3 (25:16):

Bananas. And I love it. 

Speaker 5 (25:18):

It is bananas and it is so much fun, not only for me, but it's really fun for my clients. So essentially I have a program called Copy that sells. It's not a program. I don't know why I said that. It's a one-on-one service. Love it. I work directly with my clients. There's no group involved. So I work one-on-one because you have your own unique voice and I really dive deep into everything about your business. So I basically extract all those incredible nuggets of information that allow me to tell your story. And so there are some videos that you watch, they're only five minutes long, and I ask you pointed questions that you just fill into a worksheet and then I take your answers and I write your wireframe. And a wireframe is just a roadmap for your site detailing all the headlines, all the body copy, where the buttons go, where the images go, every word on your website. It's all there. But I wouldn't say it's definitely not a fully designed website. It's a wireframe for your website. 

Speaker 3 (26:28):

It's very helpful. I actually loved, I had a sales page page written by a StoryBrand guide, and when I received the copy, I was like, oh, this is very easy to just put into preexisting. I mean, for me, I know how to write a sales page, but it was very cool to be like, oh, I actually don't have a lot of other brain work to do here. 

Speaker 5 (26:48):

No, it's really turnkey. And so I write that wireframe for you so you don't have to sit there in frustration trying to figure it out yourself. And then we get onto our 90 minute collaboration call, and I walk you through the wireframe and my thinking and the strategy behind every single word on the page. And then we go back through each section and just really make sure it's aligned not only with your voice, but your unique clientele better than anybody else. And so we want to make sure that it's really speaking to them, resonating with them, and that by the time they've scrolled through your page that they are going to book a consult with you immediately. And so then that is the whole 2.5 hour process. It's kind of an hour of prep work on your part and then 90 minute call with me. And then you take your wire frame that we've collaborated on together and you copy and paste that into your website. You let me know when it's done, and then I do a loom recording after the fact just going through the new page and giving you my feedback. Not only on, I mean the copy doesn't really change, but I give you feedback on fonts, colors, layout, flow. Oh, that's great. 

Speaker 5 (28:16):

Yeah, I kind of put my design hat on at that point and give you feedback just to make sure that you're looking like a total 

Speaker 3 (28:26):

Basically. 

Speaker 5 (28:27):

I 

Speaker 3 (28:27):

Love it. That's a little bit of extra I hadn't heard other people do. I love it. 

Speaker 5 (28:31):

Yeah, it's a little bonus. 

Speaker 3 (28:33):

It's a little extra from Kris. I love it. And so if someone's interested in working with you in this way, what's the lead time? Is it a quick process? Do you have to book you out months in advance? 

Speaker 5 (28:44):

Yeah, I'm typically about three to four weeks out. So right now anyway, I'm three to four weeks out. At any given time, it could be more than that, but I like to allow at least a week for you to kind of take your time with intake portion of it. But yeah, it happens really quickly. And I love the work. It's such a blast and it's such a relief for my clients to just check that mofo off of their to-do 

Speaker 3 (29:12):

List. I mean, listen, I know people who've been struggling to get their websites finished for a year now, if you're listening, you know who I'm talking about. I'm not going to say your name, but maybe you need to give Kris a call and just get that. I think it's a nice little adrenaline push too to be like, okay, someone's working very quickly for me. I can also work a little more quickly. I think we need these people that help us push the boulder up the hill, for lack of a better phrase, 

Speaker 5 (29:36):

Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think back to that bottle effect, you need somebody to give you perspective and to hold your hand and also to do the heavy lifting for you. And then the copy itself does the heavy lifting for you. So it's selling for you, and all you have to do is get on those consult calls, but the copy is really set up that your clients won't have a lot of questions. They're just going to want to book a call with you. They're already excited to work with you. They already know you're the right fit for them. They just want to book a call and figure out how to move forward from there. So it just is kind of like, it just is a major time saver. The other thing about the wireframe, the feedback that I keep getting time and time again, is that once you've got your wireframe, you've really got the language that you're going to need for all your other marketing materials. So you're going to have that wireframe. And when you need to do a social post or when you need to write an email or when you need to create a little bio for social media, you just go to the wireframe and you copy and paste from that. That is like your brand or your offer, copy Bible. 

Speaker 3 (30:52):

Yes. That's very true. That's extremely true. And I will say this for everyone listening, Kris and I have not worked together yet, but like I said, I have another StoryBrand. I have a sales page. And what's funny about when I did my end of year audit last year, the most frequently purchased course is the course that has the StoryBrand sales page. 

Speaker 5 (31:13):

Yeah. I mean, I am really blown away by it. I've been in the industry, like I said, 20 years, but I really started leveraging the power of story in all my projects in 2017. I have yet to find an industry or a business that isn't completely transformed once I implement this framework. And it's really about a lot of it's just, yes, it's about storytelling, but it's also about psychology and how our brains are wired 

Speaker 3 (31:48):

So much about psychology. Well, Kris, I think you've given people a lot to think about, which I always love. If you want to get ahold of Kris, Kris, where can people find you on the internet? 

Speaker 5 (31:59):

Go to red door designs.com. That's Red door with two Ds, and then designs with an S at the end, red door designs.com. And there you can learn about all the different ways to engage with me. But there's a great really valuable free beyond there that walks you through the fundamentals of story and shows you how to write compelling copy in five minutes. And then you'll also see on there my offer for StoryBrand copy that sells in two and a half hours flat. 

Speaker 3 (32:35):

I love it. I love compelling copy in five minutes. You guys, you can do that while you're making breakfast. You can do that while you're waiting in line of the grocery. You can do it anywhere. Five minutes is amazing. Love it. We're going to link to all that in the show notes. Kris, thank you so much. I love talking about copy. It's one of those super unsexy things that when you get into entrepreneurship, you're like you said earlier, you're like, I guess I have to learn how to do that, but you really have to learn how to do that. 

Speaker 5 (33:00):

Yeah, you really do. And the beautiful thing is, once you learn how, or once you understand some of the basics of how to tell a story, it's not as hard to write your own copy. And the other thing is, once you do it, then you're done with it and you can carry on and focus on the work that you love. 

Speaker 3 (33:20):

Absolutely. Kris, thank you so much for spending your time with us today. We so appreciate it. 

Speaker 5 (33:25):

I had the best time with you, Renee. Thank you for having me. 

Speaker 3 (33:29):

Well, thanks for being here. And friends, you know what I'm going to say, thank you so much for spending your time with us, because I know that your time is the one thing you cannot make any more of. So go out there and either work with Kris to write some copy or write your own compelling copy, and we'll see you next week. Friends, same time, same place. Bye for now. 

Speaker 4 (33:49):

Thanks for listening to Talk with Renee DLow. Dive into the show notes at renee dlow.com/podcast and connect with Renee at Talk with Renee DLow on Instagram. 

Speaker 6 (34:02):

Today we discuss Miro. Today I want to talk about the hellscape that is technical diagramming, right? Everybody's nodding their heads right now, and there is a potential solution that I want to share. There was one name that several people brought up. I did some digging, and it's kind of nuts how much this program Miro has for developers. I have to share this. It could potentially be a game changer for you. So my favorite part about Miro is that half the work is already done. Right now, typically we spend hours starting diagrams from scratch gathering information. You get buy-in from every team. That's a lot of work to do. But Miro has a full set of integrations with the tools you're probably already using. And they also offer open APIs and SDKs for custom solutions for all those niche diagramming use cases we have to do. So the end result is the same, but it doesn't take forever. It's a massive, massive time saver. I'm transforming basic flowcharts and network architectures, and it all lives in one place. So are you using Miro? Have you used it? I want to hear. That's MIR o.com.