Intro: Welcome to the Masterful Coach Podcast with Molly Claire. If you’re a coach who’s ready to impact more lives, make more money, and create a life you love, you are in exactly the right place. Get the support you deserve as a female entrepreneur. Master your coaching skills, grow your ideal business, and to honor your priorities in your personal life.

Are you in? Let’s get started with your host, bestselling author, and master life and business coach, Molly Claire.

Molly Claire: Hey, coach. All right. Well, if you have ever struggled with copy on your website or maybe wondered how to formulate the perfect sales page that will actually draw your clients in and move them to clicking yes to signing up with you, this episode is for you.

I know these are questions across the board for online business owners, coaches, consultants. I love helping to answer these questions for you, and today’s guest is going to do just that. I’m thrilled to bring you Kris Jones today, who is a story brand guide. She has founded Red Door Designs where she specializes in helping you to create powerful copy. As you’ll hear from the interview, she shares a little bit about her background and how storytelling has always been an element of the work that she has done, even visual storytelling with design on websites.

Since recording this interview, I had the amazing opportunity to work with Kris personally. It was a phenomenal experience. The process was very simple for me, very streamlined, and really brought out some powerful stuff in our work together to create what I think is an awesome sales page.

And in fact, you can check it out on my website to see a little bit about how Kris works. She actually helped me to launch Create a Killer Program for Your Clients. This is a program that I’m running this fall as you’re listening to this. Enrollment is full. However, I will be opening the doors again for another group this fall before the holidays hit.

So definitely, if you are interested in either checking out the way that Kris works with clients to format sales copy, or if you are interested in joining the wait list to Create a Killer Program for Your Clients, make sure to go to mollyclaire.com. Click on the Work With Me tab, and you will see that program there when you click that program button. You’ll be able to see the amazing work that Kris and I did together, and you can also find out more about that program, of course.

All right, coaches, let’s go ahead and dive into this interview with Kris Jones.

All right, coaches, I’m so excited to introduce you to Kris today, especially because I know it can be really easy for us to get stuck when it comes to copy.

Kris has been at this for a long time and she’s gonna be bring some great tips. Hello, Kris. How are you?

Kris Jones: Hey Molly. I’m doing great. How are you?

Molly Claire: Good, good. I’m so excited to dive into this topic with you because some people feel that, you know, copy can flow pretty easily and others would rather die than write copy. And then there’s everyone in between, right? But so, tell us a little bit about who are you? What do you do? Why do you love it?

Kris Jones: Uh, well, I’m Kris. I have a boutique agency in Portland, Oregon called Red Door Designs. And as you mentioned, I’ve been at this for a long time, like 20 years. The work I do is really my purpose in life. I am lucky enough to have found it early, in my younger years and just stuck with it.

My history really began with visual storytelling. I got really good at branding and design and, eventually even designing websites. But as time went on and the internet landscape evolved, beautiful design really wasn’t enough anymore to get my clients the results that they were needing in order to thrive in their business.

Molly Claire: So, yes. Yes. And I assume your clients, all kinds of just online business owners.

Kris Jones: Yes, I work with a lot of coaches. I work with anyone who’s a service-based entrepreneur. Several years ago now, I had a client come to me. Her name was Elise. And she was in the publishing industry, but had this business idea that she wanted to get off the ground. And she came to me and said, “Okay, I’ll write the website. You design it, and we’ll, you know, launch this thing.”

And so I set the deadline, I think it was like April 3rd and. Sure enough, April 3rd came and she called me and she was just frazzled and frustrated, feeling stuck. She’s like, “I don’t know what is wrong with me. I cannot write my own copy. I keep trying and trying and I’m either, you know, what comes out isn’t good enough or, it just, it’s not working. I feel stuck.”

And so, at that point, we brainstormed some ideas. She hired a copywriter and then another copywriter. Then we thought about maybe she talks to some old clients and gets some inspiration there. Anyway, she just felt completely stuck and paralyzed because when she outsourced the copy, it didn’t feel aligned with her voice.

When you own your own business, your website and the messaging that you create really needs to feel a hundred percent aligned with who you are.

Molly Claire: Absolutely. It really does because that’s your copy is for people reading your site, right? That’s how they get a flavor for who you are. That’s how they connect with you. It’s a big deal. And so I know that’s a challenge for a lot of people, right? That wanna outsource that, but is it my voice? So yeah, that makes total sense.

Okay. Keep going, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Kris Jones: And when it isn’t your voice, then people ask for your website and you cringe. You’re like, “Ah, well, I don’t really want you to go to my website, but here it is. But kind of ignore that one section or that part. Like, I need to update it.” Right? “It’s in the process of being updated. Don’t go.”

And so ultimately, I believe you should be excited to send somebody to your website. And not only that, but when they go to your website that they really get a sense of who you are and begin to resonate with you. Because no one’s gonna hire someone they don’t resonate with.

We wanna really establish the website can be- essentially, your website can act as like a top sales employee that’s working for you 24/7. You can really do that work that you love – the coaching, and the helping your clients – and you’ve got these tools set up for you on a autopilot that are doing the things that you don’t like to do; the selling, the converting, the getting new clients, putting yourself out there.

If you just have a website that’s dialed in, you can point everybody there and it does that heavy lifting for you. Yeah.

Molly Claire: Yes, yes. Yeah, so, so with this client, so she’s outsourcing, she’s not aligned.

Kris Jones: Thank you for getting me back on track. She just, she was stuck. She couldn’t hire it out, but she couldn’t write it herself. And so that experience, essentially was so hard for me because I didn’t feel equipped to help her. I could tell her visual story, but I couldn’t really tell the written story.

And to be perfectly honest, at that point, even my own website was beautiful, but it wasn’t clear and compelling, and it wasn’t converting. I was relying pretty much solely on referrals for my business. Which, referrals are great, but they’re not reliable or consistent, predictable, I should say. And that experience – thank you, Elise – sent me on a journey to never let that happen again.

And I decided to just learn everything that I could about story. I flew across the country, I attended story workshops. I practiced. I read. I basically immersed myself in it for a number of years. And came out on the other side with this approach that I have, which is really about marrying visual storytelling with written storytelling.

And the truth is, most people on the internet, are maybe doing one or the other, but they’re not doing both. And when you do both, when your written story and your visual story are aligned, and they’re bringing each other to life, then you kind of bubble up to the top of the internet. And it’s much more easy to be remembered, to stand out, and to build your business.

Molly Claire: So we’re talking about copy here, right? And you’re talking specifically about story. You started with visual story. I know when we were chatting before we started recording, you were sharing that as a child you liked to do visual storytelling and all this. So we’re talking about copy and you’re using the word story.

Can you help my listeners to understand what you mean when you’re talking about story and their copy on their site?

Kris Jones: Yes, absolutely. So, when I talk about story, I talk about story as it were from like the beginning of time. So, what is the thing that pulled us around the fireside from many, many, many years ago? It was storytelling. We as humans, we are really wired for story and it’s a way that we engage.

When you tell a story, people lean in and they can’t disengage until that story is complete. And that’s why movies are so powerful. In this day and age when we are just so distracted and we have a million things going on, nothing has that power like when you go to a movie. Everything gets turned off and you get pulled into this story for 90 minutes. Nothing can capture our attention that way.

What I’m a big believer of is using the timeless fundamentals of storytelling that you see in every movie that you watch, but applying that framework to your business. So every story you’ve ever heard, movie you’ve ever watched, every book you’ve ever read begins with a character, who I call a herok that has a problem. And that that hero doesn’t know how to overcome their problems.

So they go out into the world, asking their friends, looking on the internet to find a guide to help them navigate and overcome this problem. So, one thing I I want your listeners to really cement into their memory is that they are not the hero, they are the guide. The guide is the Yoda or the Mr. Miyagi or the strongest person in every story. The hero’s actually the weakest character in the story, because they have a problem that they don’t know how to overcome.

And so, essentially, we’ve got a character who has a problem. They meet a guide – that’s you as the coach – who gives them a plan that calls them to action. And that results in success and helps them avoid failure. That is the recipe for every darn story you’ve ever heard in your life.

And so what’s beautiful is that each of those components – so there’s seven components there that I just reviewed – the character, the problem, the guide, the plan, the call to action, and then the result in success and avoiding failure. So think of those as ingredients that you might put into a big pot of chili. So you’ve got your beans and your tomatoes, and each of those are an ingredient. When you combine those ingredients into one page on your website you begin to tell a cohesive and compelling story.

Molly Claire: I wanna jump in and bring something up. Because I think what I’m about to say is, I think this is in line with what you’re saying – but you let me know if I’m off with this – but I know something that some of my clients struggle with is they have a niche, they have people that they work with and they haven’t personally, overcome that challenge. And so some of them have kind of this fraud complex. “Well, I didn’t have this problem.”

Like, I remember I had a coach who was a weight loss coach and she’d never struggled with her weight. And so she’s like, “I’m a fraud.” And I think, anyway, that what you’re saying, this idea that the client essentially is the hero, right? You are the guide.

And so for my coaches listening, they don’t have to be the hero or to have figured it out to have story in their website, right? The idea is, the story is really telling about the journey and the process, and doesn’t necessarily have to be something that that person has experienced. Am I correct on that?

Kris Jones: As the guide, you do not have to have overcome the problem yourself. You just have to know how to help other people overcome the problem.

Molly Claire: Yes. Okay. I’m just gonna pause. Like, all of you listening right now, whether you’ve experienced some of what you help your clients with or none of it at all, you do not have to have overcome, and fix, and solved personally. You just need to know how. That’s really all we care about, right? We all just want someone who knows how to solve our problem.

Kris Jones: Right. We don’t care if they’ve been through it or not.

Molly Claire: That’s right.

Kris Jones: If they’ve solved it for 50 other people and they know how to solve it enough, that’s all we care about. That’s really, that’s so true.

Molly Claire: That’s right. Okay. I just wanted to highlight that because I know that’s a place where people get hung up. And I could see a lot of my listeners thinking, “Well, like, what if my story isn’t as exciting enough?” or something. That this isn’t really about your story, it’s about the story you tell that pulls people in as they read and, and potentially imagine themselves being the hero of that story you’re telling.

Kris Jones: I think where it gets confusing is that a lot of us get confused around story. Because we think that our story has to be about us, right? As in like, our origin story, how we got into this business, and our background, and our great-grandfather immigrating to the US or whatever it is. Nobody cares about your origin story, I’m sorry. If you wanna write it, you certainly can, but I would tuck it away on a different page. Because that is really not super important in telling the story.

When I talk about telling your story on your website, I’m really talking about inviting your potential clients into a story with you where they play the character as the hero, and you play the character as the guide. So, you’re pulling them into a narrative. And by including all these ingredients that I’m talking about, it becomes a story just like you throw a bunch of ingredients into a big pot, it becomes chili. But it’s not chili when it’s not cooked.

Molly Claire: Right, right. I think this is an important distinction. And I think, even when I’m working with my clients and helping them, they want me to look at their website and go over the copy or whatever. And there are certainly places and ways that we talk about ourselves and say why we’re here and why we’re doing this.

And, like I always say to my clients, the about me section is really still about your client. You’re saying things about you, but you wanna be saying it in a way that’s relevant to your clients. Everything, everything is focused on them, right.

Kris Jones: A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. It looks like it’s about you, but it’s really about you as it relates to them. It’s really about you, as it relates to you solving their problem. Because that’s what they’re there for. They’re not there to just like, make friends with you by reading about how great you are. They want the help. That’s all they care about. They just wanna solve their problem.

And the truth is, they’re not gonna find the person that can best solve their problem. Right? The best, most skilled person that can solve their problem, they might not even hire that person because maybe that person isn’t communicating clearly. They’re gonna hire the person that they resonate with, and that they feel a connection with. And that’s the power of story, is establishing that resonance and that connection and that trust. And then people feel compelled to wanna work with us.

Molly Claire: Yes. Yes. Okay, so. I think it’s such a great word when we’re talking about writing emails, writing copy, and that idea of, we’re compelling people to take action. We’re compelling someone with our subject line to open the email. We’re compelling someone to continue to scroll and read and click and all of that.

I know that something that you talk about is helping people write compelling copy in two and a half hours. So tell us more about that. What is the technique or some of the tips that you offer?

Kris Jones: Yeah, well, I have two offers. I have a freebie that’s called How to Write Compelling Copy in Five Minutes Flat.

Molly Claire: Oh, amazing.

Kris Jones: And so that really shows you the fundamentals of story. So if you like what I’m sharing today, that’s a freebie that you can download with a worksheet and a five minute video and it’s,

Molly Claire: And we’ll have that here. We’ll have that here in the show notes. Is that on your website?

Kris Jones: it’s on my website. Yeah. Okay. So it’s Red door designs. Yep.

Molly Claire: It’s on her site and we’ll have it in the show notes and at the end of the show we’ll make sure to highlight all of that so they know.

Kris Jones: Yes, but what I think what you’re talking about is my main offer, which is called Story Brand Copy That Sells In 2.5 Hours Flat. And so that service is a ‘done for you’ service that I created as a solution to what had happened with Elise. She was in that pickle of not being able to hire a copywriter, but not being able to write it herself and, but needing it to really feel aligned with her.

And so, the other reality for all of us coaches and business owners is really, we’re wearing a lot of hats, and we don’t have a lot of time. And copywriting tends to take a lot of time because it’s challenging. And so, the process for me is, I believe that story is in you, it’s inside of you, it just needs to be pulled out. So kind of like cleaning out your garage. We empty out the garage and then I pull out all those bits of gold and all the treasures in there that are your story. So that is step one.

And then I write your copy for you with that information. I’m able to write it for you, but it’s really aligned with who you are because those nuggets of information, all that gold within you has been pulled out. And that, I think, has taken me a couple decades to learn exactly how to pull that out in a really efficient way. That process takes about 45 minutes to an hour.

And then after I’ve written your copy for you, we get on a 90 minute collaboration call where we really apply your voice to the copy. So we make sure that all the nuances about your clients and the work you do and your voice are applied to the copy at that point in time. And then you essentially transfer that copy over to your website, or you can have my team do that for you if you don’t wanna deal with it.

And then that’s when I put out on my designer hat – my visual storytelling hat – and look at your website with design eyes and make sure the visual story you’re telling is really aligned with the written storytelling. So at that point, I’ll give you guidance and clear direction on fonts, colors, photography, flow, hierarchy of type, the whole thing. And then at that point you just turn on that ‘client getting faucet’ and it keeps bringing new clients for as long as you want.

Molly Claire: We all wanna find that faucet. Right. So tell me, for my listeners who are taking a stab at doing their copy, and wanting to make it compelling, and wanting to maybe bring in this idea of the storytelling, what advice would you give them if they’re feeling stuck or frozen? Because we all know, we have big feelings come up, right? So, what advice would you give them?

Kris Jones: Oh my gosh. Well, number one. You’re not alone. Like, everybody is struggling with this and there’s good reason behind it. It’s something I call the bottle effect, which is essentially, we’re all inside of our bottle trying to read the label that can only be read from the outside. We’re so close to our own business, it’s really hard to write about it.

And then the other thing that happens, if you love your work and you’ve immersed yourself in it, we forget what it’s like to not know what we know. And so we tend to complicate our language, and speak in with terminology that’s really above our potential clients’ heads. And so when those two things happen, that’s why people tend to struggle.

I actually have yet to meet an entrepreneur who is like, “Yeah, the writing part just comes easily to me.” Most everybody does struggle with it. The beautiful thing is the solution to that or that feeling stuck, moving beyond that is not that hard. And the key to it is really coming back to story.

So when you get stuck, what we wanna come back to is, who’s the hero? Who’s the client that we’re working with, and what are the problems that they have? When you get on the phone with them, in their words, what are the things that they’re complaining about to you?

Molly Claire: Yes, yes. I wanna highlight that again. ’cause I know, I say this to my clients all the time. They say the things and I’m like, but would your clients say that? I think it’s so useful to think about when this client is walking with their best friend or their neighbor, what are they telling them that they’re looking for? Like, what are they journaling about? And like you just said, when you’re on a consultation with them, what are the words they are using?

And we forget that a lot of times, and we tell them all these things. Like you said, we forget what we know, right? We’re using all these words that are just, they don’t even realize that’s a thing.

Kris Jones: Right. Or like, they might tell you their problem and really, you’ve been doing this. So you know that their real problem is actually something to,

Molly Claire: Something else. That’s right. But they don’t know yet. They don’t have that awareness. So speak to the awareness they have now. Yeah.

Kris Jones: right. So, when you begin any kind of copy that you write, with a problem that your clients face, our brains cannot help but engage. We get pulled into that story. So you’ll notice, whether it’s an Instagram post, or a website or you’re doing a podcast interview and they need a profile, you always wanna begin with the problem that your heroes or your clients are struggling with.

What I’m gonna walk you through right now is three different steps to help you get unstuck with your copy.

Molly Claire: Perfect. Perfect.

Kris Jones: The beautiful thing about this is it works like an accordion. So it could be a two sentence-long story, or it could be a three paragraph long post that you do, or blog that you do. But it follows the same three steps.

So number one, you introduce the hero with a problem. It could be, many women over 40 struggle with their weight. Like, shorter is always better, especially when you’re coming up with your one-liner, which is what this. We want to introduce ourselves as the guide with the solution, and we don’t do that by naming like, who I am and what I’m all about.

You just say my three month coaching program helps them achieve their ideal weight. So that right there, that sentence shows me stepping in as the guide and showing my service as the solution to their problem. And then step three is, all the wonderful benefits that they’re going to experience after they’ve solved the problem.

Now, this is not the features of my program. This is not features. Features are about you. They’re not about the hero. We wanna really stay focused on the hero with all of our communications. And so it might mean, so they can feel more confident, take that vacation without the dread of overeating. We wanna show them that they can avoid failure too, right? I like to focus on all the benefits, so they can feel really confident, so they can keep up with their kids, so they can feel better in their body. Whatever it is, you wanna brain dump a bunch of benefits that they’re gonna experience.

But I like to weave in one big one or three at the end of that. So it’s the hero with a problem is step one. Meet a guide with a solution, step two. And then show them what success will look like.

Molly Claire: Short or long. We can and use it and repurposing it. Right? Like, using those elements in different places. And as you were talking about the benefits, I think that it’s so important for us as coaches to remember, that those of you listening, I think it’s so easy for us to minimize what we do when we’re selling it, and in it all the time.

You really are providing a solution to something that really matters to your clients. And I think the more that we can inspire that hope and possibility and make it actually seem within reach, it’s a big deal. And that’s that driving force or that compelling piece of, “Wow, maybe I could have this.”

So I just, I think that’s such an important part of it. Yeah.

Kris Jones: Yeah. I think a lot of times that third step, we downplay it. We downplay it a lot. And I encourage my clients to really think big, think like, what is truly possible for them? What have some of your best clients gotten to experience? And think about those kind of top tier.

Molly Claire: Yeah.

Kris Jones: Because that’s what’s possible for them.

Molly Claire: That’s right. Yeah. And I think this can be kind of a tricky or dicey area because I know a lot of my coaches are really hesitant. Like, “I don’t wanna promise something that I can’t deliver.” And definitely we want to make sure that we are not making false claims at all. And I think that there are, most likely if you are fearing that, you are probably way holding back on really sharing what actually is possible for them.

So I wanna offer up to my listeners to be conscious of that because there’s a lot possible, and we wanna inspire hope in our clients.

Kris Jones: We do, and just because that result hasn’t happened for a hundred percent of your clients, doesn’t mean that you can’t claim that it’s possible.

Molly Claire: That’s right. Yeah, that’s right. Okay. I have one more question for you, and then I would love for you to tell everyone where they can find you, and of course we’ll have everything in the show notes as well.

But one of the things, well, I wanted to circle back and actually comment on this, how you were talking about like, we’re trying to read the label from the inside of the bottle. And I think that I definitely, I mean, I can look at my client’s copy. I can give them all kinds of what I think is pretty good advice, and when it comes to my own, it’s so easy for me to miss the mark.

And so I just wanted to highlight that because whether you all wanna like check out Kris and work with her, or someone else, or do it yourself, I think it is vital to put it in front of other people’s eyes. Like, there are a lot of things in my business that I prefer to write the copy. I prefer to do it. And I always have to put it in front of other people because I just can’t see it. I can’t quite see it all, so Yeah,

Kris Jones: It doesn’t matter who you are or how great you are. Copy, yeah.

Molly Claire: it’s too close. It’s too close, right. Yeah. Okay. Well this has been great, Kris. Tell everyone where they can find you and follow you and

all the things.

Kris Jones: Yeah, so the best way to find me is at my website, reddoordesigns.com. And when you go there, you can sign up for my freebie. And that’s really walking you through these three steps that we just walked through. But you get a five minute video and a worksheet that will really help you get unstuck, but also you can keep using that worksheet for every piece of content that you create.

And then if you’re just done DIYing your own copy and you just want someone to do it for you, but you want it to feel like your voice, then you can work with me on my Copy That Sells offer. And that all happens. Copy done for you in 2.5 hours flat. The other thing is you can always also follow me on Instagram and I am Red Door Design with no SS at the end on Instagram at Red Door Design.

Molly Claire: Okay, perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Kris, thank you so much. This has been great.

Kris Jones: I really loved our conversation. Thank you, Molly. Love it. All right, we’ll talk with you soon. Best wishes in your business?

Intro: Thanks for listening. Listening to the Masterful Coach Podcast, are you ready to build your amazing business with Molly as your coach? Check out www.mollyclaire.com to find out about Masterful Coach Foundations and the 10 K accelerator method. It’s the ultimate support for you as a coach building your ideal life and business.