The Storytelling Framework That Will Make You More Sales

The High Impact Podcast, with Katie Bambrick and Kris Jones

Speaker 1 (00:09):

Hey guys. So a few years ago I read a book. It was called,

I mean I've read a few books in a few years, but this specific book that I'm

talking about is called How to Build a StoryBrand, and it's by a man named

Donald Miller. And the reason why I'm talking about this is because today's

guest actually trained with Donald Miller, and this is what she does for a

living. Her name's Chris Jones and she talks about how to attract more clients

through effective storytelling. So most business owners know that telling a

story on their website's important, but they don't really know where to begin.

So Chris is going to share with us the StoryBrand framework that focuses on

three ways to get a website that sells for you and not just a website, but you

can use them on sales calls. You can use this in your copywriting, you can use

this anywhere that you have any kind of presence, and you are going to gain a

really solid understanding of the fundamentals of storytelling.

Speaker 1 (01:01):

So you can start to leverage the power of story in all of

your marketing materials to increase revenue and simplify your business. And it

sounds amazing and it sounds too good to be true almost, but honestly, you're

going to get so much from this episode because they're really tangible

strategies. And actually, Chris and I even went through the framework on this

podcast episode and we did it with my program sold out stories. So it'll make

it really tangible for you, really easy to understand for you. And I'm really

looking forward for you guys to listen to this one. And here is Chris. So

Chris, can you just tell us a little bit about what you do because it is quite

unique. I was just talking to you previously before we started recording, and

you said, has anyone ever come on the podcast before and talked about this? And

I was like, no, they haven't. We've had people talk about branding and design

and content, but not quite in the way that you help people. So yeah, just give

us a little rundown on what it is exactly that you do.

Speaker 2 (02:02):

Okay, great. Well, thank you for having me here, Katie.

I'm really, really excited to be talking to your audience and talking to you.

You too. And so I'll give you a little bit of a backstory. I've been doing this

work for over 20 years now, which is insane, but I love it more than anything

in the world. So it's just been an incredible journey. And I started out doing

branding and design work, and that was really my passion was all about telling

story through visuals. And eventually I got more and more into website design

and time after time, my clients would come to me and I would say, okay, well

we're going to start the website design on, let's just say the first of the

month. I'll need your copy before we get started. And they'd say, well, what

should I write? I mean, I don't know what to write.

Speaker 2 (03:03):

I'm like, you can do it. You can do it. You can figure it

out. Hire a copywriter, ask a friend. And more often than not, they would say a

few things, but the most common was, well, I'm a pretty good writer. I'm a

decent writer. I'm sure I can do this. Or My husband's a great writer, or I'll

hire a writer. And ultimately it just turned into this giant sticking point in

the process. And after years of watching this happen, I just decided I am not

going to put my clients through this anymore. This is a major sticking point.

It's really hard. Nobody can figure it out. Even when a copywriter is hired,

often that doesn't really feel resonant with the client because it wasn't their

own voice. So it was this real pickle that they were in where they needed it to

really feel authentic and aligned to them because they were the business.

Speaker 2 (04:06):

But yet when they outsourced to a copywriter, that was

someone else's voice. So it felt like there was this disconnect and then we'd

start with the website design process. So it was not the best way to start out

a project. And in about 2016, 2017, I had just had enough and I was like, you

know what? I am going to crack the code on this. I'm going to figure out what

makes incredible website copy that feels aligned with your voice. And how do we

do this in a way that's not such a headache for clients? Because often writing

for your own business kind of feels like torture for a lot of business owners.

So I got introduced to Donald Miller from building a StoryBrand and got to work

with him and trained with him and started implementing the approach and the

framework into my client's work.

Speaker 2 (05:12):

And it was mind blowing what happened to their businesses.

It always blew me away, even though I knew it worked and I watched it work time

and time again, it didn't matter what industry or even what size of company,

the storytelling approach just worked. And it helped my clients start growing

their businesses making more money and feeling way more confident about how

they talked about their business because when we would create this website copy

for them, it wasn't just their website copy, it actually became the way they

spoke about their business. It became the way they wrote about their business

and other platforms outside of their website. So it was really transformative.

And now it ended up working out so well that that's all I do, and that's all I

do. I work with clients and we create their website copy together. So they're

not alone trying to do it in a silo and they're not hiring a copywriter to go

do it in a silo. It's a collaborative process that we do together. And it only

takes 2.5 hours flat because we're all busy people. Nobody wants to spend three

days writing copy for their business. And so the whole process is really

streamlined and we do it under three hours. So it's great.

Speaker 1 (06:46):

That's extremely fast. I'm surprised it takes such a short

amount of time because I know that I work with one-on-one clients privately,

and a lot of people do struggle with copywriting. But what you said before, and

I think actually you said it before we started talking, we started recording

the podcast, is that branding and design won't work unless you have a clear

compelling story. So it's almost like the story forms the basis of everything

else you do and it informs your copy, it informs your audience of who you are

and makes them want to work with you. So how do you then go about creating a

compelling story? What does that even look like? What does that even mean?

Speaker 2 (07:27):

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, the reality is I think

it's kind of common knowledge that storytelling in business is a really

important thing to do. But then people are like, okay, well then what does that

mean? Does that mean I have to talk about myself? Do I talk about my history?

What exactly does that mean? And the truth is, in business, when you're telling

a story, really what you're doing is you're inviting your clients into a

narrative with you where you both play roles in the story and how it works.

Every story, I'm going to break down the formula first story for you, which

will probably ruin every movie or book that you ever read in the future. But

this is really what it all boils down to in the most simple of terms. So the

first thing that happens in every story is a hero has a problem.

Speaker 2 (08:32):

And then the second thing that happens, that hero meets a

guide with a solution. And then the third thing that happens is the hero finds

success. So that's it. And when you use that formula, it translates like let's

just say for a website, it translates this. So a hero has a problem. The key

here is really your client is the hero. You are not the hero. Your client is

always the hero. And if you kind of take nothing else from this conversation,

write that down is that your clients are the hero of the story and all the

communication that you speak to is really around the problem that they have.

What's the problem that your clients have that inspires them or motivates them

to reach out to you to help them with it? So they reach out to you. You're the

guide with the solution.

Speaker 2 (09:36):

And the guide doesn't really enter into any book or any

movie until about 20 minutes into the book or movie. So we don't want to start

out our website talking about ourselves. And when this happens, which is 99% of

the websites out there on the internet, the business owner is positioning

themselves as the hero instead of the guide. And we do that by talking about

ourselves, using a lot of i, me, we type of language. But the reality is the

hero is the weakest character in the story because we're not sure if they're

going to find success or if they're going to fail. But the guide character in

every story, they've been there, done that. If you think about Mr. Miyagi or

Yoda, totally, totally. They've been there, done that. They know how to do it,

they can do it again. They can show you the way they don't have to talk about

themselves.

Speaker 2 (10:40):

And this doesn't mean that they're perfect, right? They

have their own faults, but they know how to get you from A to Z. And so really

the key here to make sure that your clients, that you're positioning your

clients as the hero is really just to articulate their problem. And there's

some really cool things that happen when we articulate our customer's problem

or our client's problem really clearly. Our brains automatically think, if you

can articulate my problem, you are the best one to solve it. And so I usually

start out all my websites with three bullets that articulate the problems that

my clients are struggling with. And it's that simple, that section right there,

which I call the problem section, you're articulating the problem and you're

stating the problem really clearly. It creates this connection. They feel seen

your potential customers or your leads feel seen. They feel heard. They're

like, oh, here she is the best one to solve this. They can articulate it. And

so it does so much heavy lifting for you just in that one section. It also

establishes you as the guide. And that's just done through a lot of empathy. I

get it. This is a really hard struggle that you're dealing with. It's hard.

Whatever the problem that you solve is it's hard. And that empathy just, it's

so powerful and it's so simple.

Speaker 1 (12:26):

Yeah, I mean, empathy is one of the best ways to build

connection with people. And I think I remember actually because read Donald

Miller's book, building a StoryBrand, and I remember him giving examples of

businesses. It was quite entertaining actually, that positioned themselves as

the hero and didn't position any, didn't position. I don't even think they

talked about the guide, didn't it? And I think he gave an example of Diddy

doing it with a brand that he had. And I think people don't realize that they

are positioning themselves as the hero, but often it's like, this is who I am,

this is what I do. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. And it's like, whoa, whoa.

You are losing track of what's important here. People are buying from you

because of something that's going to be in it for them. So can you give us an

example maybe of a specific example about what this might look like? Okay, if

we've got a certain problem, I don't know. Say for example, okay, I've got a

program about selling on stories and how to sell on Instagram stories. So how

would I go about then using this framework and applying it to my business? Or

if you want to give another example of something that you've done.

Speaker 2 (13:37):

Yeah. Well, when you get on a phone with a lead, what are

their headaches? What are they struggling with, what's hard for them?

Speaker 1 (13:47):

So a lot of the time when it comes to telling stories,

they have absolutely no idea what to say in order to convert people. So it's

actually the language and the messaging. A lot of the time they feel really

repetitive. They feel like they're just sort of saying the same thing every

single day and they don't know how to actually diversify the content that

they're talking about. So I would say those are two main ones. And also sales

confidence. So they feel like especially when it comes to pitching the offer at

the end, they feel like they lose track a little bit and they just sort of wig

out and they dunno how to actually end the pitch and how to do the selling part

at the end. So I feel like those are the three main kind of issues.

Speaker 2 (14:30):

Okay, cool. So I would start with, I'm not great at

writing right on the fly like this. So

Speaker 1 (14:37):

Yeah, it is hard,

Speaker 2 (14:39):

But the essence will come through. So I would start out

with a headline that says something like Instagram stories are a necessary evil

to grow your business. You've got to be there, but you really don't want to be.

That's really the reality. They feel obligated to be there, but they really

don't want to be. And then I would follow that with a few different bullets

that might just be as simple as get in front of your phone or you turn the

camera on and you don't know what to say. You fumble around not knowing what to

say. And then I would say something like, okay, you've done it a handful of

times, but you keep saying the same thing over and over again and you don't

want to sound repetitive. And then I would have the third bullet be something.

Ultimately the point of doing this is to close the sale and you lack the

confidence. You need to do that with ease. So mean nobody knows your clients

better than you. This is why it's very much a collaborative process. But we'd

start by kind of brainstorming these ideas and then we'd hone and hone and hone

and articulate it in a way that it's just spot on and your leads would come and

they'd be like, oh yes, she gets my struggle. She understands me.

Speaker 1 (16:14):

Yeah, I love that. Okay, cool. And then when do I come

into the story? So we've done the heroes come in, they've got this problem, and

then that would be the guide is coming in next. So that would be like, Hey, I

see you, I've got the solution.

Speaker 2 (16:32):

You already, in a way, you're already in the narrative

just by not talking about yourself, you've already positioned yourself as the

guide by communicating the problems. And so what we want to do right after that

is show them what success looks like. And the way that a lot of people get this

wrong is that they talk about the features of what they offer rather than

what's the success that your hero is going to experience if they work with you.

So you want to kind of show them what's possible and you want to point to

here's what the peak of your mountain looks like after the fact. So what's like

are the most extraordinary results that your clients experience?

Speaker 1 (17:26):

I think the number one is that they're actually converting

people from their stories. So they're able to actually get warm leads from

their stories. They're actually selling, they're communicating the value of

their offer. Finally, people actually think, oh God, I need this. And they're

buying from them. But the ultimate goal is that they can make some sales.

Speaker 2 (17:48):

Got it. Okay. So then I would really think about what

their life is after they are converting those leads. Let's just say they're 10

X in their conversions, or you can ballpark what's the most common. Huge.

Speaker 1 (18:07):

Which is funny you say that. That was the tagline I used

for the program,

Speaker 2 (18:10):

10 x

Speaker 1 (18:10):

Your conversions and Instagram

Speaker 2 (18:12):

Stories. Yeah, great. Okay, there you go. So 10 x your

conversions, that's a huge point of success. And then I would follow up with

maybe two more that what's their life going to be like after their 10 x and

their conversions? Are they going to be booked out for three months? Are they

going to be able to actually work less? Are they going to have more free time

to go out with their friends? Are they going to be able to take a vacation

without working? What their life really going to be like once they solve this

problem? And that's really why we make these decisions is based on those

emotional pain points. So I would just get in touch of with what they really

truly want. I mean, I think my best guess would be they really want freedom.

Most entrepreneurs, they want more money and they want freedom, whether it's

freedom to spend what they want or freedom of time.

Speaker 2 (19:19):

And then maybe one other thing that really means a lot to

them, you really want to paint that picture of success and you want to show

them that that's possible because you know can get them there. You've been

there, done that, and then kind of woven in here. And I'd have to show you some

kind of visual examples, but you're always welcome to look at my website and my

website has a lot of examples of clients that I've worked with and woven in

there is really your solution. So you yourself aren't really come into the page

visually until about halfway through your homepage, but your solution is really

like, how do you uniquely solve this problem? And it can be as simple as I

remove the fear or remove the overwhelm around Instagram stories. That's your

solution. You don't really have to tell them exactly how you do it, but you

tell them what you do, what's your solution?

Speaker 2 (20:32):

And people tend to overthink this one. But I worked with a

parenting coach last week and her solution was really, it was like the problem

was moms of toddlers feel like there's not enough hours in the day to get it

all done. So that's the problem. And then her solution was I helped them change

their relationship with time and that's it. That's her solution. I helped

change their relationship with time. I mean, that's a huge deal, don't get me

wrong. But notice we're not getting into all the detail about it. It's like

this is what I do. I help them change their relationship with time so they can

parent with more joy, more presence, and more ease. And so that's kind of a

good example of the shortest version of any story that you would ever tell.

It's like the problem, the solution, and then the success.

Speaker 1 (21:34):

Love that. I think I see that a lot as well with people.

They go way too into the method and way too into the features, and it just

doesn't convert. It usually overwhelms actually. It usually overwhelms the

person receiving end.

Speaker 2 (21:50):

You become the hero right there because you're talking

about yourself and you're like, this is what I can do. And it kind of changes

the energy when you're the guide, you're the confident, you're confident,

you're not eager to please, you're just like, yeah, we can do this. Do you want

to do it? Whereas when you're shouting out all the features that you offer,

it's kind of this desperate energy that comes through that people might not

even be aware of, but they can feel it. And that's why it doesn't convert.

Speaker 1 (22:22):

Interesting. And that reminds me, I feel like there's so

many correlations between business and dating. If you're on a date with someone

and they're like, me, buy from me. Well not buy from me, but I'm so great

dating me. You're like, oh my god, this person is so boring a and nauseating

versus if someone shows interest in you and makes you feel seen and is engaged

with you, that's when you're more interested. So I think it can be applied to

so many areas of life. It's

Speaker 2 (22:51):

So true. That is such a good point. It's really, really

such a great point. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:58):

I felt there's so many correlations between business and

relationships. I could talk about it all day to be honest. So is there a way

that you can use this not just on your website, but can you kind of take this

methodology and apply it to maybe social media posts or email marketing? How

easy is that to do?

Speaker 2 (23:19):

Oh my gosh. It is really the key. This is something that

can be repurposed on literally everything that you create, every piece of

writing that you create. I would highly, highly recommend that you use the

framework. It can be done. I do it most often for people's websites. But once

we craft that, this is kind of a two part answer. So once we craft your

tagline, which is really kind of that one short phrase that summarizes the

story of your business or your brand story, which is what I just shared around

the mom who's the mother coach, who helps people change their relationship with

time. So once you craft that, you can put that, you can literally copy and

paste that same thing into your email signature. You put it on your website,

you put it on your social media profiles, on your business cards and a million

other things like anywhere your business is client facing.

Speaker 2 (24:27):

Put that there. So the message is consistent, it's

cohesive, it's really clear the problem that you're solving and the benefits

that you're clients will experience. So that's just effortless. Do that once

and you're done. And I have a freebie that will walk you through how to do that

in literally five minutes. So it's kind of insane. But the formula itself, the

formula around articulate the problem, problem, the hero has a problem. That

hero meets a guide with a solution and the hero finds success. So that formula,

you can use it literally on everything. So every social media post that you do,

every tweet, I mean everything just, if you do nothing more, just start with

the problem and take it from there. But when you start with the problem, that's

what makes copy compelling. People get pulled in and they have to know, is this

problem going to get solved, resolved?

Speaker 2 (25:32):

What's going to happen next? I mean, this is why we sit in

a movie theater for 90 minutes and we don't leave because we have to know this

problem is going to get solved. That is why we start with the problem. Our

brains cannot resist them. Examples of where you can use this framework, all

your Instagram posts, and you can do it in a way that you don't have to repeat

yourself. Your clients really have probably, I bet you could brainstorm 20

different problems at least that they have if you really dig deep. And that's

right there, that's 20 different posts that you can start with the problem,

problem, and then briefly talk about your solution and then remind them of

what's possible as far as success goes with them.

Speaker 1 (26:23):

And I love that it's a really simple formula. It's not

very complicated. And when you hear it, you're like, oh yeah, that's so

obvious. But it's not necessarily natural to a lot of people. I think a lot of

people feel like they've got to just constantly sell themselves, and it's like,

no, no, no. Make your audience feel seen. You get their problems, you

understand them. How important is it to find your unique brand voice in this

story as well? Does that play a big part in the storytelling? How do you even find

your brand voice? I'd love to talk about that a little bit.

Speaker 2 (26:57):

Tell me a little bit about, I am curious your definition

of brand voice.

Speaker 1 (27:03):

Mine would be, well, my business is obviously like myself,

so I feel like my brand voice is very tied to me personally. So I like to make

sure that, and of course it's still a curated version of myself, maybe how I am

online and my business isn't necessarily what I'm like on a date that wouldn't

be very fun or what I'm like with my friends all the time. But there's

definitely elements of me throughout. So my brand voice is very, I'm quite

direct in my content, usually quite polarizing in my content, but also I like

to make sure that it's done in a fun, humorous way. I don't want people to be

like, oh God, I'm constantly triggered by what Katie's saying, but I don't like

to beat around the bush too much. So that I would say is definitely part of my

brand voice.

Speaker 2 (27:52):

But

Speaker 1 (27:52):

Yeah, interested to see what you think of,

Speaker 2 (27:57):

Well, the people that I work with, they just like you.

They are their brand. So I typically work with solopreneurs or small business

owners. So really they are the voice. And the beautiful thing about the process

that I walk them through is I know how to ask the right questions to extract

the right answers. And just by the very nature of them answering those

questions, their voice is coming through. And so that's kind of phase one. And

phase two is this collaborative call that we do or a collaborative session

where we just really make sure I'm always listening for certain words or a

certain tone or just kind of a way of being. A lot of the processes I imagine

fairly intuitive, but it comes through because it is your voice. It's like you

can't not have your voice, it just comes through. If I was working with a

larger company in Nike or something like that, then we would really want to

define those qualities of the brand prior to answering these questions and then

just double checking, just like we do on a one-to-one is does this feel

aligned?

Speaker 2 (29:26):

Does this feel aligned? Does this feel like something you

would say, does this feel like something this kind of avatar of your brand

would say? So it's an iterative process and a continual honing refining. But

when you're done, just like if you've ever painted before when a painting's

done because you just know and when your copy is done because it feels when

it's done right, because it feels really good. It feels like sitting down with

somebody and having coffee with them, rather than having them take out their

laser pointer and be giving you a presentation. We want it to feel really

intimate and connected and conversational.

Speaker 1 (30:14):

And I think if people are struggling to write their copy,

something happens. Sometimes. I know that a lot of people I'll talk to about

their business and they'll be really passionate and they're all fired up. And

I'm like, where is that in your content? I'm not seeing any of that. It's

almost like as soon as they put pen to paper, it just all goes out the window.

Do you have any advice for people to try and if they can't, for example, maybe

hire a copywriter, how to try and translate that a little bit better so they

don't lose their voice in the process of them trying to write their copy for

their website?

Speaker 2 (30:49):

Yeah. Gosh, that's such a great question. I mean, the

first way I would answer that question is if you're wanting to DIY, and if

you're in a phase of DIYing for your own business, then DIY, your website build

because there are incredible builders out there like Squarespace and a million

other ones that really allow you to build your website for free essentially and

make it look pretty good. And then I would say put your money if you have a few

thousand dollars, put your money into working with an expert that can tell your

story. And I say that because writing for your own business is so hard to do

alone. It's like we're really, as business owners, we're stuck inside of this

bottle and we're trying to read the label that can only be read from the

outside. And so it's really important that you get support and help. And that

doesn't have to be somebody that you pay. It can be a friend or ideally someone

not in your industry, but somebody who's maybe a potential would be a potential

client for you to have them look at what you're writing. So I think if you

really need to DIY it, and you don't want to spend $1, well, I would spend $15

and buy building a StoryBrand, and I would go through that process. That book

by Donald Miller is really kind of like the Bible for business owner

copywriting.

Speaker 2 (32:33):

And then if you also don't want to spend any money, but

you need a little bit more support, then I would go to Clarity with Chris,

which is where my freebie is. And I talk through with visuals, the fundamentals

of story, and sometimes those visuals make it easier to really embed this

framework into your bones. And I walk you through in a five minute video how to

tell your story. And then it comes with a companion worksheet where I just ask

you a handful of those questions that allow me to extract the most important

information from you, and it's completely free and hold your hand through the

whole thing. And then you also get a free call with me at the end to give you

some outside perspective guidance and feedback.

Speaker 1 (33:29):

Amazing.

Speaker 2 (33:30):

Yeah, it's really, it's a blast. It's really fun.

Speaker 1 (33:33):

And after reading the book, I was like, okay, this is

gold. It's really, really good, really tangible, really easy to implement. So

I'll leave all the details for your freebie as well in the show notes below.

What if someone is like, I don't need a freebie, I just want to work with

Chris. How do I do that? Where do they go? How do they work with you?

Speaker 2 (33:51):

Yeah, if you're totally done trying to do it by yourself

and you want it done in two and a half hours, but with an expert, then go to

grow. Do red door designs.com. That's grow.red door designs.com. And right

there, you can work with me and we'll get your copy dialed in 2.5 hours flat.

Speaker 1 (34:20):

I mean, what are you guys still doing? Listening. That's

the most, I mean, 2.5 hours. That is the dream. Chris, thank you so much for

joining me. I really, really found this whole conversation fascinating, and I

think people are going to take a lot away from this as well and be able to

really elevate their copy and hopefully increase their conversions as a result.

So yeah, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 2 (34:44):

Thank you for having me. It was the joy. Thanks, Katie.