How to Write Compelling Sales Copy that Explodes Revenue

Get Out of Your Head & Grow Your Online Business Podcast, with Marion Wagner and Kris Jones

Speaker 1 (00:02):

Welcome to the Small Audience Big Income podcast. My name is Marion Wagner and I work with online business owners to take the guesswork out of lead gen and income growth. Having created multiple six figure plus businesses each in a different niche, I firmly believe you don't need a huge following, a large ad budget or a big team in order to make a serious impact and income online. I'm so glad you're here. Let's dive in 

Speaker 1 (00:31):

Today on the podcast. I'm thrilled to be welcoming Kris Jones, who is the founder of Red Door Designs. So Kris is a copywriter and a StoryBrand expert. And I was going to say it's funny, but not in a haha way, but more in a funny and interesting way that the StoryBrand podcast with Donald Miller was the very first podcast I ever listened to and got hooked on. And now it's called the Business Made Simple Podcast, but the StoryBrand framework still stands, and this is the blueprint through which Kris works with her clients to create websites and sales pages that convert. In this episode, we talk about sales copy and how you can create messaging that immediately slaps your ideal client in the face, but in a good way. And we also talk about the most common mistakes that she sees in the online space when it comes to writing copy and how you could instantly make some tweaks to your sales copy to grab the right people's attention. I hope you enjoy. Here's my conversation with Kris Jones. Kris, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy that you're here. 

Speaker 2 (01:35):

I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you. 

Speaker 1 (01:38):

This is such a hot topic. So I know we're going to be talking about copywriting, how to create effective messaging and storytelling. So why don't we just start off with hearing your story. How did you get to where you are and why do you do what you 

Speaker 2 (01:54):

Do? Freedom. Lots of freedom. I've been doing this for over 20 years now as an entrepreneur owning my own business. I just got notified that I bought Red Door designs.com as a domain. I think it was 21, 22 years ago now. So I'm like, really? Has it been that long? That's 

Speaker 1 (02:19):

Incredible. 

Speaker 2 (02:19):

Yeah, yeah. I have in hindsight always been wired for entrepreneurship, so it's no shock to me that this has been my path, but I spent many years working for other people, working for larger corporations prior to making that leap. Not many years, but enough to know that I really needed to do my own thing. So essentially I started my own business and was really focused more on visual storytelling, and I've always been a storyteller. As a child, I was, instead of playing with dolls, I was making pretend trifold vacation brochures and telling these visual stories. And that's really what got me into as an adult, the business that I started in, which was branding and design, which eventually morphed into website design. And initially, all you really needed at that phase of the internet, all you really needed was a beautiful website. And if you had that, your business would pretty much be able to thrive. 

Speaker 2 (03:42):

There wasn't a big high expectation around websites. I mean, it was great if they were beautiful, but as far as the messaging goes, it didn't matter quite so much. And so that's really what I focused on building and designing beautiful websites for my clients. As the online landscape changed, I started to notice that the websites weren't as effective as they had been. And even if I was really honest with myself, my own website wasn't working as well as it had before, and I was starting to really run a business that relied solely on referrals, which we love referrals, but it's not as sustainable way to run a business because it can be inconsistent and you just want to know what you're making every month and you've got money coming in and that you have a machine that's out there operating as a top sales employee, I think your website should act as your top sales employee. 

Speaker 2 (04:47):

So essentially what happened was there was this one client in particular that I had, her name was Elise, and she had a background in publishing, and so she was very comfortable with writing, and she came to me and hired me to design a beautiful website for her. And we set the kickoff date for the project, and she was going to get me all the copy for her website prior to our kickoff project kickoff date, which was like, I think it was April 10th. And what happened was she called me on April 10th and she said, oh my gosh, I don't know what is wrong with me. I cannot write this website copy. I don't know what to say. I feel paralyzed. It's so frustrating. I don't know why this is so hard for me. I mean, I've got a background in writing, so what's my problem? And I was like, oh my gosh, I don't know. 

Speaker 2 (05:50):

I'm sorry, I feel for you, but I don't know how to help you. And so we brainstormed some ideas for her around hiring a copywriter or asking a friend or even asking her previous clients for feedback on what was different about her and things like that. But she tried multiple things. She tried all those things, and none of them really worked because ultimately what was happening is that she was trying to kind of outsource her copy, which also meant outsourcing her voice. And she knew enough to know that the copy didn't feel like her. It wasn't aligned with her voice. And when you are the face of the business, the copy has got to really feel like you, and when it does, you get excited to send people to your website rather than cringing when you give somebody your website address. And so even though in that situation, I really wasn't able to help her, the gift of that was I declared that I would never let that happen again. 

Speaker 2 (07:05):

And so I went on a mission, a quest to solve this problem, to not only tell beautiful visual stories, but also beautiful, effective written stories on websites. So that could be the most powerful tool in your toolbox of running your business. And I traveled across the country to workshops. I became a StoryBrand certified guide. I read books, I practice on projects, and I practice on my own website. And it was quite unbelievable. What happened happened fairly quickly, once I really understood how to tell written stories on your website and paired that with really gorgeous visuals, my clients were calling me and going, people are booking with me without even needing a sales call, or I'm actually charging six times more for the same service, or I've just hit my first 10 KA month. I kept getting feedback like that over and over again. And not only that, my own website started really working for me, so I was also able to charge more. I was also getting booked out, and I've just never looked back, never. Every project that I do, I apply those principles and they're incredibly powerful. 

Speaker 1 (08:50):

That's amazing. I love, yeah, it was a totally different ball game 15 years ago in the online space. I love that. How if you have a website, then you're winning. And now, we were just talking about this before the call, how it really is about this not only a battle, but it is like you really want to help people gain the attention of their ideal client, and that's not always very easy. So, alright, we always say that you can't convert someone if you don't have their attention. So what would you say to someone who's listening right now who's wondering, okay, that's great, but how the heck do I grab the attention of my dream client with my copy? 

Speaker 2 (09:29):

Yeah, it's not hard, as you might think, because the hardest way to grab their attention is to talk about yourself. And I know that sounds counterintuitive as a business owner, like, well, it's me. I'm the brand, I'm the business, and don't people want to know about me and everything that I can do for them? And the answer is, 

Speaker 2 (09:58):

What people care about is themselves and not in a negative way, but we're all doing our best and we're all trying to solve our own problems. And so the quickest, most effective way that you can really grab their attention is to talk about them, talk about your ideal clients, talk about the struggles that they're having. That is the best way, if you can brain dump all the problems that they're struggling with. And when you get on the phone with them, what are they sharing with you? What's waking them up in the middle of the night and just, you might have five or 10 that are themes that you keep hearing over and over again. And if you begin your communications with that, with the problem that they're having, all kinds of cool things are going to happen. They're going to immediately feel like you get them, that you understand their problem. And the more clearly you can articulate their problem immediately, they think you're going to be the best one to solve it. They feel seen, they feel heard, and fundamentally you begin to establish a resonance with them, and that is how you want to begin this relationship. So that's a simple way to do it. 

Speaker 1 (11:30):

I love that. We've talked on this podcast before about the different stages of awareness and how when people are in that problem aware phase, if what they're reading matches up with what they're feeling and they're aware of that they have this problem, it kind of smacks 'em across the face like, oh, I'm going to pay attention. 

Speaker 2 (11:49):

That pulls 'em in. Our brains literally cannot help but engage. When we begin our story with a problem that they face, our brains cannot help but engage. 

Speaker 1 (12:02):

So the question is, okay, so you have someone's attention, and then we want to convert them on some level, whether it's they give an email address for something or they sign up to become a client. What is the best way to create copy that carries people through this little journey from attention to conversion? 

Speaker 2 (12:27):

So, okay, we've pulled them in by letting them know that we understand their problem. They will not disengage at this point. And then what we want to do next is position our service as the solution to their problem. So that means introducing ourselves as the guide with a solution. Our service is the solution to those problems that we just shared. So every story, if you want to talk about it in its simplest of terms, it begins with a hero who has a problem that they can't solve. That's your client. Your client is the hero. You are not the hero, you're the guide. And so every story begins with a hero that has a problem that they can't solve, and then they meet a guide that has a solution, and that solution is your service. So you want to position it in that way. And then if they follow your plan or engage with your solution, they're going to experience success. 

Speaker 2 (13:36):

So you really want to paint a picture of what's their life going to look like? Paint a picture of a better future for them now that they have solved this problem. And when it comes to that, it's really important to talk about benefits as it relates to them in their life. Not features about your service, not features that you offer, but benefits that they are going to actually experience. And when you do it that way, you're checking all the boxes of a story. And that is the most powerful way to build trust, help them realize that you are the best person to solve their problem, and at that point they will want to engage with you. Now, there are two ways that people engage with you. Typically, one is kind of a baby commitment, which is getting your freebie and your freebie. What you want that to do is solve the problem for them, solve maybe one 10th of their problem, but your service will solve the full problem for them, right? Yes, a hundred percent of their problem. But your freebie should solve 10% of you want them to have a little win with their freebie. 

Speaker 1 (15:03):

It's like one bite, not the whole enchilada, just one. 

Speaker 2 (15:06):

Yes, yes. Yeah. Enchilada reference. Yes, 

Speaker 1 (15:10):

I'm hungry. Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (15:11):

Exactly. A hundred percent. And so when they're giving your email, that's a really big deal, and that is showing that they're really invested in wanting to solve this problem. And also very curious about your capability to solve the problem. So you want to make sure that your freebie is really going to give them value and begin to nurture that relationship with generosity and trust and help them really get to know you, because a lot of people don't make quick, big decisions around working with somebody. And then the other thing you want to do, depending on how you do your service, is you want to give them an opportunity to get on a call with you or buy your course. And that's a bigger commitment. So telling a story will, we'll also do that same job. It just depends on where they are in their journey and how ready they are to solve the problem. 

Speaker 1 (16:12):

Yes. Because once they're problem aware, then they become solution aware and they're looking at options. And so yes, if you're just opening the door and saying, Hey, this is a solution, if it lines up with their timing, like you said, where they are, then 

Speaker 2 (16:29):

It works. 

Speaker 1 (16:31):

Yep. Can you think of an example? I love examples of a client or something where you had a story that converted really well and what that looked like. 

Speaker 2 (16:43):

Yeah. Yeah, I can. So what I think every business owner needs is like a one-liner or one statement that is a story that will sell for you on autopilot, whether someone's asking you what you do, or I would say once you have this little mini story, which I call a one-liner, you put it in your social media profiles, you put it on your website, you put it in the footer of, not in the footer, but in the signature part of every email that you send out, you want to beat this one drum of the problem that you solve everywhere. LinkedIn, banner, I don't care. Just literally put it everywhere. And don't feel like you have to invent the wheel because people need to hear things or read or hear things like eight times before they can actually commit it to memory. And so when you beat that same drum, you're really helping build the strength of your brand communications. 

Speaker 2 (17:49):

So an example would be like a coach, let's just say like a parenting coach. There's a one-liner example I can share there. It's many toddler moms feel overwhelmed because there aren't enough hours in the day to get it all done. I help them change their relationship with time so they can parent with more joy, peace, and connection. So you'll notice there that that's two sentences, but it includes all those ingredients of story, which we just went through. So many toddler moms feel overwhelmed because there aren't enough hours in the day to get it all done. So this is what her clients were telling her. There's just not enough hours in the day to get it all done. And then I helped them change the relationship with time. So that part is like her introducing herself as the guide and her solution is I help them change their relationship with time. That's her solution, or her course and her coaching program does that. And then she's painting a picture of a better future for her clients. So I help them change their relationship with times so they can parent with more joy, peace, and connection. That's their huge win for solving this problem. 

Speaker 1 (19:13):

Yes, that's their vision. That's what they want. Love that. Oh my gosh, I have a, now she's nine months old. I'm like, I might need to know that course coming up. 

Speaker 2 (19:25):

I'll connect you with her. 

Speaker 1 (19:26):

That's funny. Alright, so why can't someone just hire a copywriter and call it good? 

Speaker 2 (19:34):

Well, kind of back to the story with Elise, yes. Often when we outsource our own voice, it doesn't feel truly authentic to us. Also, there's a lot of great copywriters out there and it's really an important industry and I consider myself a copywriter, so it's like I'm not against outsourcing it, but I do think the process needs to be really collaborative. And it took me a long time to figure out how to do this in a really effective way. Because what can happen is you end up hiring it out, but then the revisions and the back and forth take so long that you probably could have written it yourself anyway, and now you're out a bunch of money and time. And so the way I work with clients is I kind of pull that gold outside of their brain out from inside their brain. And there's a thing called the bottle effect. Have you heard of this? 

Speaker 1 (20:44):

Uhuh? 

Speaker 2 (20:44):

No, it's really true. For a hundred percent of business owners, at least I have yet to meet one that isn't suffering with this syndrome. It's really that we're inside of the bottle when we own our own business, we are inside of the bottle and we're trying to read the label that can only be read on the outside of the bottle. And so that's why number one, it's so hard to write for ourselves, but that's also why it's really important to get outside perspective, to give you guidance and clarity. 

Speaker 1 (21:20):

I am a sucker for analogies. And so that's a great one. That's also why I believe in coaching and partnering with the right people, because sometimes you can't see your own blind spots because 

Speaker 2 (21:34):

Yeah, the bottle effects, you're in the bottle. It's so true. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (21:40):

Okay, so what are some common mistakes that you see? I mean, you've already mentioned some of them where they make them, if you are talking about yourself too much or talking about features versus benefits, but what are some common mistakes you see online business owners making when it comes to writing copy? That converts? 

Speaker 2 (22:02):

Number one, trying to do it yourself. I think just because you're a good writer or you got great grades in school and English because of the bottle effect, I think it's just really hard to write your own copy. And sometimes you can muscle your way through it, but writing for a website is so different than writing for a blog or writing for an email. And so it's really about how to write copy in a way that pulls people in. But also, it's got to be so simple because the way people navigate websites these days on mobile and they're scrolling really quickly, and so you have to essentially, large bodies of text will not get read. And so you don't want your website to be filled with large paragraphs. 

Speaker 1 (22:57):

Yes, I was even talking about this with a client yesterday about emails and how now I break my emails into almost one maximum two sentences, paragraphs. 

Speaker 2 (23:07):

Yes. Because our eye needs breathing room in between that copy in order to actually digest it. And also we are just scrolling really quickly. So you've got to figure out how to get those words into the eye and into the brain and absorbed. And that's another way to do it too. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (23:30):

Okay. We're just getting to be a lazy, don't give me a big paragraph. Just short little. Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (23:37):

The other thing too on a website that can be really important to do is just little things like little icons above will let the eye know that, oh, this is important. I should pay attention to this. And so it kind of tackles both parts. So our brain is digesting information both visually and written. And when you combine the two together, if you, let's just say you are highlighting three big benefits that they're going to experience from getting to work with you, then put an icon with each of those benefits that kind of visually bring that benefit to life. So it basically shows that it's more important, it's also going to be absorbed. It'll be coming at them from two parts of the brain. 

Speaker 1 (24:27):

Amazing. So that's a great tip because the whole point of this conversation is really how to create compelling sales copy. And so that pairing that visual with the three points of the benefits of working with you. Yes. Any other tips on creating, they could listen to this episode and then go to their website and make little tweaks right 

Speaker 2 (24:53):

Now. Oh my gosh, I have endless amounts of tips. 

Speaker 1 (24:57):

Bring it. How 

Speaker 2 (24:57):

Much time do we have? Another really, really great one is we want to, as the guide, we want to show up with empathy and authority, and that's how we be the best guide, and that's how we position them as the hero. So you want to be doing that, but one really great way to be the guide is to give them a plan of what you want them to do next. So the hero, which is your client, they come to your website and they're wanting to solve their problem. They don't want to try and figure out what to do next. And often what we'll do is want to give them all kinds of options, like learn more, schedule a call, one other call to action, I dunno, I can't think of one right now, but multiple calls to action. They don't want choices. They want someone to tell them what to do to solve the problem, and otherwise they would've already solved the problem themselves. 

Speaker 2 (26:00):

So you want to be really clear on what you want them to do next. And a great way to do that is to show them that you have a plan for what to do next. So you want to kind of like those visual icons that we just talked about. You can do this also with the plan, have a big number one and a big number two and a big number three. And then below the step one would be the main call to action. So step one, schedule a call with me. Step two, I will support you in resolving this problem or overcoming these challenges. Step three, what's the happy end result that they're going to experience? So they feel, I mean, this does two different things. Number one, it just tells them that you're in charge and that you know how to solve this problem so they don't have to be figuring out how to do it. 

Speaker 2 (26:56):

And the other thing that it does is it allows them to really feel like usually they're overwhelmed. Like, oh my gosh, I just want to solve this problem and it's going to take me a year to do it, and it's going to take 250 things that I have to change in order to get to this resolution. And you're telling them, no, no, no. I know how to solve the problem. I have streamlined it for you, and in three simple steps, you're going to get to your happy end result. So that's a really easy way to update your website, kind of put yourself more in that authority role. 

Speaker 1 (27:38):

Oh, I love that. And it's true. People, they pay for outcomes, they pay for solutions, and they also just pay for certainty. And when you can paint that in a simple way, it's almost like when you're talking, I don't have any anxiety, but if I did, it would be like, oh, that makes it so much easier. Because it also helps with the certainty of investing as to what's going to happen next after I click this button and I send money. Okay, now what? Well, you've already told them. 

Speaker 2 (28:11):

Yeah, they know exactly what to expect. So you just overcome some big hurdles. Another thing you can do probably pretty quickly, all of this stuff can probably be done within an hour of logging onto your website and tweaking it would be to audit your testimonials. And so a lot of what we do as a business owner, and I have been guilty of this in the past for sure, is I would ask a client, okay, can you give me a testimonial? And I would let them write it and not give them any guidance, and then they'd come back with this long paragraph of copy and I'd copy and paste that into my website. But what I would challenge your listeners to do is to go review all the testimonials on your page and delete anything that doesn't speak to the struggle that they were experiencing before working with you and the happy end result that they're experiencing now that they did work with you and now that they've worked with you, delete everything else. 

Speaker 2 (29:22):

You want people to read those testimonials and be like, oh, that person was in the same boat as I am with their struggle and oh, look at the result that they got from working with so-and-so and so, delete everything else. Delete anything that says Amy was so much fun, or Amy was really just really great and really fantastic and she was available and she, that's all about you and that feels good for us to read. I love getting that kind of feedback from my clients, but that's not what's going to be effective for you to feature on your website. 

Speaker 1 (30:14):

Yes, we have to paint the outcome, not the process really. I wrote down what you said here, I can't tell you how many testimonials I have where people are just, they're so kind and they're like, we had so much fun doing this, but you're right. Struggle. And then the experience and result. Love 

Speaker 2 (30:35):

It. Yes, a hundred percent. Yep. 

Speaker 1 (30:39):

Okay, last question, and I have to ask this because I feel like it's a hot topic right now, is artificial intelligence AI does, I hear people talking about how it's going to replace copywriters. I don't really see that, but does it help or hurt the sales copywriting process to use AI or what are your thoughts on that? 

Speaker 2 (31:02):

I think that AI is really a powerful tool. I like to think of it like a really, a winning racehorse. It has the muscle and the power behind it to win, but any winning racehorse needs a jockey in order to ride it and guide it. And so I am not anti AI at all. This is where we are and I think we can all use it to support us in kind of getting unstuck or getting over feeling paralyzed around our content. And I think that AI can act as a really wonderful content generator if you feed it with the information in your business about your business that it really needs to know. I don't think that AI is an effective strategic copywriter at all. You really have to ride that horse. And I think it can often take as much time to try and get AI to do it as it would be to create it yourself as a copywriter, as a strategic sales page copywriter, no, you can't rely on it for that. It really does require know-how around exactly what you want and how to ask it for what you want in each and every section on your page. But if you're going to write a blog and you're really just needing it to generate content for blogs or even social media, then AI is awesome for that. 

Speaker 1 (32:56):

Yeah, I think the elements that make sales copy compelling, that work, at least for me, where I'm just like, where do I sign up that button is when it has personality and it really speaks to my pain points. And it's probably hard for AI to know exactly what to show that personality. 

Speaker 2 (33:15):

Yeah, it's really your voice. You can't outsource it whether you're trying to hire it out to another human or you're trying to have AI do it for you, your unique voice and the nuances of the way you speak cannot be replicated by somebody else. And that's really how back to the resonance piece, people resonate with you because of the way you are and the energy that comes through your copy. And a robot isn't really going to be able to capture that, but it can certainly help you maybe 

Speaker 1 (33:51):

One day. Yeah. Yeah. Alright, Kris, this has been amazing. How can people connect with you? 

Speaker 2 (33:59):

Well, if you want to dig deeper into the things that we talked about today, you can get my freebie from my website. It will show you how to write compelling copy in five minutes flat. So it's a five minute video that comes with a little worksheet that will literally change the way that you talk about your business in every area. So that's a really powerful freebie. It's completely free. And then if you are done DIYing your own copy and just want to turn your website into your top performing sales employee, then you can hire me to work with you one-on-one, and what we do is craft StoryBrand website copy that sells in 2.5 hours flat. So it's very, for a lot of us that wear mini hats and feel like our plates are full, we just want it done and we want to know it's done right and we want it to get a return on our investment, then that's the best way to do that. And all that's at red door designs.com. That's R-E-D-D-O-O-R-D-E-S-I-G-N s.com. 

Speaker 1 (35:11):

And we'll link to it below, but love it. This is fun stuff with business, I think is crafting the messaging that resonates with your ideal client. So thank you so much, Kris for being here. 

Speaker 2 (35:23):

Ah, thank you for having me. What a fun time.